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Anonymous
June 3, 2009, 11:19 am
This article slanderous.
The following false information is presented:
That there are things that go on that do not reach the editing floor. Although I am sure that a lot of things do not make it past editing in ANY TV show, the author here is clearly implying that negative things happen, that they would not want the public to see, that does not make it onto the final cut. This is a simply FALSE statement. It is NOT true, in fact, Cesar does not even allow “second takes” of his show.
“As long as you don’t look at the anger sometimes simmering in his eyes” YUP, that adds to your credibility Mr. Kelley. Basing your statements on a look in someone’s eye. This is border line racist. You cannot make false claims about someone and back them up with the “anger simmering in his eyes.” It shows clearly that you have very little basis for your OPINIONS that you falsely present here as FACTS.
For example, 5 - 10 minutes of playing tug-of-war—where you always let the dog win and praise him enthusiastically for winning—is roughly equivalent to a two hour walk in terms of the amount of energy expended.
This is just a bizarre statement, especially given the controversy of tug-a-war. I want my dogs to give me objects that they have in their mouth without a fight, as it can some day save their lives. I do not want to give them 5-10 min every day of them pulling back and then WINNING the object- this is only going to intensify possessiveness in a lot of dogs.
“He takes the dog on 2 - 4 hour walks, sometimes forcing the animal to wear heavy weights” He actually advocates 45 minute walks, and I’m sure that to some people might see carrying a jar of, say, pickles with a 50+lb dog is forcing them to wear heavy weights… right…
“By the way, if you’ve seen footage of the wolves in Yellowstone, keep in mind that those wolves were taken captive in British Columbia, drugged, outfitted with electronic monitoring collars, and forcibly relocated to a completely new, and in many ways, quite foreign environment. So while they’re still living in the wild their behaviors are halfway between those of a truly wild pack and a group of unrelated wolves held in captivity.” WHAT??? Yellowstone has been a saving grace for the wolf species! And these wolves that are here now are generations past any imported wolves
“At one point in the Timothy Dalton film a papa wolf (i.e., the pack leader), rolls over on his back, “signifying submission” to his puppies, and encourages them to jump on his stomach and chest and even allows them to nip at his ears and nose. In other words, he’s PLAYING with his pups. (Do you ever see Cesar encourage a dog “dominate” him like this?” NOOO I’m sure that Cesar doesn’t encourage dogs to bite at him…. And I don’t know a sane person who would. Cesar is NOT raising pups, he clearly states that his methods are made for people with adult dogs that are unbalanced. They are too harsh for puppies, and any person that actually listens to him knows that.
My last point is this: Cesar uses his methods on dogs that have issues. It is used to REHABILITATE unbalanced dogs that are at the end of their life’s leash, so to speak. It is not used to play with your dog, to be used on a well balanced dog, etc. So Mr. Kelly, no you shouldn’t be using his methods on your Dalmatian. He doesn’t apply them in those situations and he never instructs anyone else to. This is one of the only articles I’ve ever read stating that wolves do not have a pack leader. You need to do more unbiased peer-reviewed research there Mr. Kelly, before you base your opinions on a documentary that you once saw, and totally disregard the Yellowstone wolves because they don’t fit into your picture that you want to present.
Anonymous
June 4, 2009, 1:00 am
you sound a little upset, and while understanding your need to defend a celeberity, you may agree with, and/or find to me entertaining.
This article is not slanderous in any way.
If you take the time to do research outside of your current line of focus, you will find many professionals, who actually have a full education, regarding pyschology, and animal behavior. Where milan, offers a past of hanging out with dogs in mexico as a child, and being discovered by another well known celeberity, who took him under her wing, and nursed him to what he has become.
If you care to educate yourself on these matters, I am offering many links to which, offer for the facts, that you may not be privledged of having.
These are well known, behaviorist, who have done real research and studies. Showing milan's 'flashing words, stating.."do not try this at home", to be very valid, due to the damage it has caused to people, and to those poor dogs that have been euthanized, because their person refused to look into a more positive, and friendly method of training.
Here are some very imformitive links to provide for more than the author of this particular artical to be in agreement, and if you are willing to read with an open mind, and continue to research, you may find yourself to be educated.
http://www.wolf.org/wolves/news/iwmag/2008/winter/alphawolf.pdf
http://www.dolittler.com/2009/03/16/Why-veterinary-behaviorists-cant-stand-Cesar-Millan.html
http://news.yahoo.com/s/prweb/20090515/bs_prweb/prweb2418804_1
http://www.kathysdao.com/articles/Forget_About_Being_Alpha_in_Your_Pack.html
http://life.familyeducation.com/dogs/pet-training/47274.html
http://www.therealdogblog.com/2008/01/ian-dunbar-and.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/petshealth/5361907/TV-dog-behaviour-programmes-useless-and-dangerous.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIpxI5QGmcg&feature=related
I only hope that those who follow the animal handling methods of milan will pay attention, with an open mind, and listen to real professionals on the entire concern.
good luck in whatever you decide to do.
Anonymous
June 4, 2009, 2:17 pm
“This article slanderous.”
It’s not spoken so it can’t be slanderous; legally speaking it would be libelous. However, since everything I’ve said is factual, it’s neither.
“That there are things that go on that do not reach the editing floor. Although I am sure that a lot of things do not make it past editing in ANY TV show, the author here is clearly implying that negative things happen,”
I have spoken to several people who were on the show, and what aired did not accurately reflect what actually happened with them and their dogs.
“Basing your statements on a look in someone’s eye. This is border line racist. You cannot make false claims about someone and back them up with the ‘anger simmering in his eyes.’”
I don’t see where racism enters into it. And anyone who’s watched the show knows exactly what I’m talking about. Most of the time Millan is cordial, smiling, and very charming. He’s very likable. But there are times when he gets a very angry look in his eyes. This usually happens when he’s working directly with an aggressive dog. He says he’s being “calm/assertive” but that’s not the same thing as repressed anger.
“I do not want to give [my dogs] 5-10 min every day of them pulling back and then WINNING the object- this is only going to intensify possessiveness in a lot of dogs.”
No, it won't. Just the opposite.
Also, your objections to playing tug do not negate the truthfulness of my statement that it uses up a dog’s energy quicker and more fully than walking does.
And you might want to reconsider your outdated views on tug; the best-trained dogs on the planet—police dogs are trained via tug and are able to go from tugging with all their might on the padded sleeve (or a perp’s arm) to letting go and being totally calm within a fraction of a second. Why would tug work so well for training attack dogs, detection dogs, search-and-rescue dogs, etc, and not be appropriate for pet dogs?
LCK: "By the way, if you’ve seen footage of the wolves in Yellowstone, keep in mind that those wolves were taken captive in British Columbia, drugged, outfitted with electronic monitoring collars, and forcibly relocated to a completely new, and in many ways, quite foreign environment. So while they’re still living in the wild their behaviors are halfway between those of a truly wild pack and a group of unrelated wolves held in captivity."
“WHAT??? Yellowstone has been a saving grace for the wolf species! And these wolves that are here now are generations past any imported wolves.”
Not really. They’re just now starting to act like real packs. Anytime an animal is taken out its natural habitat and put somewhere new, there’s going to be an adjustment period. I don’t know why you think this is strange or outlandish.
LCK: “At one point in the Timothy Dalton film a papa wolf (i.e., the pack leader), rolls over on his back, “signifying submission” to his puppies, and encourages them to jump on his stomach and chest and even allows them to nip at his ears and nose. In other words, he’s PLAYING with his pups. (Do you ever see Cesar encourage a dog “dominate” him like this?”
"NOOO I’m sure that Cesar doesn’t encourage dogs to bite at him…. And I don’t know a sane person who would.”
There’s a substantial difference between nipping in play and actual biting. In fact, the general consensus among most knowledgeable trainers these days is that the more a puppy uses his teeth in play the less likely he is to grow up to become a biter.
“My last point is this: Cesar uses his methods on dogs that have issues. It is used to REHABILITATE unbalanced dogs that are at the end of their life’s leash, so to speak. It is not used to play with your dog, to be used on a well balanced dog, etc.”
And my point, which you seem to have missed, is that the best way to rehabilitate troubled dogs is to teach them to play. Sometimes you have to “dominate” them first, just to get them to focus on you. But once you do that, YOU HAVE TO GET THEM TO PLAY. That's because what really solves behavioral problems, and does so with a long-lasting effect, is play. Cesar’s dogs aren’t really rehabilitated. At least not to my way of thinking. He has to keep “dominating” them to keep them under control. A dog who’s taught to play doesn’t need to be kept under control. Play, in and of itself, teaches self control.
“This is one of the only articles I’ve ever read stating that wolves do not have a pack leader. You need to do more unbiased peer-reviewed research there Mr. Kelly, before you base your opinions on a documentary that you once saw, and totally disregard the Yellowstone wolves because they don’t fit into your picture that you want to present.”
My “opinions” are not based solely on the Timothy Dalton film. That just happened to be an eye-opener for me. There are dozens of scientific articles stating that wolves don’t have pack leaders. That’s now the general consensus in the scientific community. And I love the wolves at Yellowstone, but I’m also not blind to the place they occupy (in terms of their social behavior) between a captive pack and a real wild pack.
LCK
Anonymous
June 4, 2009, 2:35 pm
LEE CHARLES KELLEY, HERE—TRYING TO REPLY TO A PREVIOUS POST IN A WAY THAT’S ACTUALLY READABLE. MY PREVIOUS ATTEMPT TO ANSWER THE FIRST POSTER'S QUESTIONS WASN"T (THE COMMENTS SECTION DOESN"T HERE DOESN'T SEEM TO ACCOMMODATE PARAGRAPH FORMATTING): ---- “This article slanderous.” ---- LCK: IT’S NOT SPOKEN SO IT CAN’T BE SLANDEROUS; LEGALLY SPEAKING IT WOULD BE LIBELOUS. HOWEVER, SINCE EVERYTHING I’VE SAID IS FACTUAL, IT’S NEITHER. ---- “That there are things that go on that do not reach the editing floor. Although I am sure that a lot of things do not make it past editing in any TV show, the author here is clearly implying that negative things happen,” ---- LCK: I HAVE SPOKEN TO SEVERAL PEOPLE WHO WERE ON THE SHOW, AND THEY TOLD ME THAT WHAT AIRED ON TV DID NOT ACCURATELY REFLECT WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED WITH THEM AND THEIR DOGS ---- “Basing your statements on a look in someone’s eye. This is border line racist. You cannot make false claims about someone and back them up with the ‘anger simmering in his eyes.’” ---- LCK: UH, I DON’T SEE WHERE RACISM ENTERS INTO IT. AND ANYONE WHO’S WATCHED THE SHOW KNOWS EXACTLY WHAT I’M TALKING ABOUT. MOST OF THE TIME MILLAN IS CORDIAL, SMILING, AND VERY CHARMING. HE’S VERY LIKABLE. BUT THERE ARE TIMES WHEN HE GETS A VERY ANGRY LOOK IN HIS EYES. THIS USUALLY HAPPENS WHEN HE’S WORKING DIRECTLY WITH AN AGGRESSIVE DOG. HE SAYS HE’S BEING “CALM/ASSERTIVE” BUT THAT’S NOT THE SAME THING AS REPRESSED ANGER. ---- “I do not want to give [my dogs] 5-10 min every day of them pulling back and then WINNING the object- this is only going to intensify possessiveness in a lot of dogs.” ---- LCK: YOUR OBJECTIONS TO PLAYING TUG DO NOT NEGATE THE TRUTHFULNESS OF MY STATEMENT THAT IT USES UP A DOG’S ENERGY QUICKER AND MORE FULLY THAN WALKING DOES. >> AND YOU MIGHT WANT TO RECONSIDER YOUR OUTDATED VIEWS ON TUG; THE BEST-TRAINED DOGS ON THE PLANET—POLICE DOGS—ARE TRAINED VIA TUG AND ARE ABLE TO GO FROM TUGGING WITH ALL THEIR MIGHT ON THE PADDED SLEEVE (OR A PERP’S ARM) TO LETTING GO AND BEING TOTALLY CALM WITHIN A FRACTION OF A SECOND. WHY WOULD TUG WORK SO WELL FOR TRAINING ATTACK DOGS, DETECTION DOGS, SEARCH-AND-RESCUE DOGS, ETC, AND NOT BE APPROPRIATE FOR PET DOGS? ---- “What??? Yellowstone has been a saving grace for the wolf species! And these wolves that are here now are generations past any imported wolves.” ---- LCK: NOT REALLY. THEY’RE JUST NOW STARTING TO ACT LIKE REAL PACKS. ANYTIME AN ANIMAL IS TAKEN OUT ITS NATURAL HABITAT AND PUT SOMEWHERE NEW, THERE’S GOING TO BE AN ADJUSTMENT PERIOD. I DON’T KNOW WHY YOU THINK THIS IS STRANGE OR OUTLANDISH. ***** LCK: “AT ONE POINT IN THE TIMOTHY DALTON FILM A PAPA WOLF (I.E., THE PACK LEADER), ROLLS OVER ON HIS BACK, “SIGNIFYING SUBMISSION” TO HIS PUPPIES, AND ENCOURAGES THEM TO JUMP ON HIS STOMACH AND CHEST AND EVEN ALLOWS THEM TO NIP AT HIS EARS AND NOSE. IN OTHER WORDS, HE’S PLAYING WITH HIS PUPS. (DO YOU EVER SEE CESAR ENCOURAGE A DOG “DOMINATE” HIM LIKE THIS?” **** “I’m sure that Cesar doesn’t encourage dogs to bite at him…. And I don’t know a sane person who would.” ---- LCK: THERE’S A SUBSTANTIAL DIFFERENCE BETWEEN NIPPING IN PLAY AND ACTUAL BITING. IN FACT, THE GENERAL CONSENSUS AMONG MOST KNOWLEDGEABLE TRAINERS THESE DAYS IS THAT THE MORE A PUPPY USES HIS TEETH IN PLAY THE LESS LIKELY HE IS TO GROW UP TO BECOME A BITER. AND THE POINT IS THAT THIS IS A BEHAVIOR THAT IS COMMON WITH WILD WOLF PARENTS, AKA TRUE PACK LEADERS, AND YET IT’S NOT SOMETHING THAT FITS MILLAN’S VIEW OF DOG PSYCHOLOGY. ---- “My last point is this: Cesar uses his methods on dogs that have issues. It is used to REHABILITATE unbalanced dogs that are at the end of their life’s leash, so to speak. It is not used to play with your dog, to be used on a well balanced dog, etc.” ---- LCK: AND MY POINT, WHICH YOU SEEM TO HAVE MISSED, IS THAT THE BEST WAY TO REHABILITATE TROUBLED DOGS IS TO TEACH THEM TO PLAY. SOMETIMES YOU HAVE TO “DOMINATE” THEM FIRST, JUST TO GET THEM TO FOCUS ON YOU. BUT WHAT REALLY SOLVES BEHAVIORAL PROBLEMS, AND DOES SO WITH A LONG-LASTING EFFECT, IS PLAY. CESAR’S DOGS AREN’T REALLY REHABILITATED. AT LEAST NOT TO MY WAY OF THINKING. HE HAS TO KEEP “DOMINATING” THEM TO KEEP THEM UNDER CONTROL. A DOG WHO’S TAUGHT TO PLAY DOESN’T NEED TO BE KEPT UNDER CONTROL. PLAY, IN AND OF ITSELF, TEACHES SELF CONTROL. ---- “This is one of the only articles I’ve ever read stating that wolves do not have a pack leader. You need to do more unbiased peer-reviewed research there Mr. Kelly, before you base your opinions on a documentary that you once saw, and totally disregard the Yellowstone wolves because they don’t fit into your picture that you want to present.” ---- LCK: MY “OPINIONS” ARE NOT BASED SOLELY ON THE TIMOTHY DALTON FILM. THAT JUST HAPPENED TO BE AN EYE-OPENER FOR ME. THERE ARE DOZENS OF SCIENTIFIC ARTICLES STATING THAT WOLVES DON’T HAVE PACK LEADERS. THAT’S NOW THE GENERAL CONSENSUS IN THE SCIENTIFIC COMMUNITY. AND I LOVE THE WOLVES AT YELLOWSTONE, BUT I’M ALSO NOT BLIND TO THE PLACE THEY OCCUPY—IN TERMS OF THEIR BEHAVIORAL REPERTOIRE—BETWEEN A CAPTIVE PACK AND A REAL WILD PACK. ---- Lee Charles Kelley
summerbuddy
June 4, 2009, 2:51 pm
Fresno, CA
I totally agree with this article and the Pack Leader concept is B.S. I never had to be a pack leader to ANY of my dogs.So what if Gracie,my dog walks in the door before me,Sometimes she waits for me to go thru first!I think Mr.Milan has good intentions,but most of the time he is playing on peoples emotions and fears.You do not have to be a PH.d to have a dog.Just use common sense,train your dog to listen and do what you do.Why oh why have we become a nation of people needing other people to show us how to live?I do not believe in the Pack Leader mentality,it's all B.S..
Anonymous
June 8, 2009, 12:44 pm
Dear Mr LCK,
thank you, thank you, thank you so much for your wonderful article. As a professional working in the dog training industry for the past 25 or so years, my job is to train PEOPLE to teach their dogs what our 'civilized version of correct manners' happens to be, so that the dog will fit into the household as a loving family member. The problem I have run into, again and again, is that the majority of pet dog owners - though sincere, loving and with the very best of intentions - are looking for the "magic pill" in solving the behavior problem they see in their dogs. Since the popularization of Mr. Milan's show, I can't count the number of people who have come to me and proudly demonstrate that all they need to do is make the "sshhhhhh" sound as they poke their dog on the back of their neck. Then POOF the dog will be trained to never jump, bite, bark, potty in the house, etc. These same people are confused that their 'noise and poke' method is not working, so they call someone like me for help. I suspect that this is NOT the way Mr Milan intends his methods be used!! Much to the contrary!! But so many people are misinterpreting his apparent 'one size fits' all approach to bridging the gap between the way a canine vs. a human see the world. His methods are not new and I beIieve that much of what he has to say is of great merit, but I have also noticed that in more than a few episodes, the *lighting* between scene number one and scene number two (where the dog has gone from snarling menice to calm/submissive companion) has changed from that indicitive of early morning to very late afternoon - just look at the shadows and you will see that a lot of time has passed. My point? The household viewer is seeing what the editors know they want to see. . . the magic pill. I attend every dog training/dog behavior seminar and workshop that I can find and make myself familiar with the great variety of theories and techniques available, in an effort to obtain a well-rounded approach to the many personalities of both human and canine I run into (sorry for the run- sentence but you get the point). And. . . . my point? I believe Mr Milan represents just one of countless behavior modification methods, but he is the guy in front of the camera, with his own line of pet products in PetCo, so he is the guy Joe Pet Owner is listening to. So, Mr LCK, your article is a breath of very much needed fresh air, it is based in science and research, not Hollywood. But clearly you are going to get bashed by the pet owners who believe they have found their savior. Those of us who have done the research, appreciate you more than you know. Thanks again. California Dog Trainer
Anonymous
June 11, 2009, 12:34 am
Both Mr. Milan and Mr. LCK have some great ideas and excellent info to back them up but truthfully I think you need to do what is best for you and your dog. YOU know your dog better than anyone else and you will know what works best and what you’re comfortable with. If you have a very mellow and easy going dog then go right ahead and roll over into a submissive position like Mr. LCK did with his Dalmatian Freddie. If you have a very dominant or aggressive type dog like me then you would probably prefer using some of the techniques on Mr. Milan's show. I myself have Two Jack Russell Terriers which I show not only in the show ring and in agility but also in performance activities made to resemble what they were actually bred for. I’m sure you know terriers have a tendency to be HIGHLY energetic, dominant, and aggressive. I CAN NOT use the techniques referred by Mr. LCK. My dogs would walk all over me. I play tug of war and fetch with my dogs every day for at least 45 minutes and let me tell you it is not nearly enough nor is it equivalent to walking them for 2 hours. But that’s my dogs and I know their energy level. Someone else’s dog may do just fine with 10 minutes of tug o war. And as far as getting down on their level to allow them to see me on the same horizon the truth is I don’t want my dogs to see me as an equal I want them to show me respect. If they don’t respect me I will never get they to listen. Because of the breed that they are and the dominant personalities they exhibit I have to be firm with them in order to control them. Even if the techniques exhibited by Mr. Milan are that of a moose I use what works and trust me my dogs are definitely not frozen in fear. Fear was pretty much bred out of terriers because of the courage they needed to accomplish the tasks they were bred for. Although I use the techniques shown by Mr. Milan and have success they are definitely not for everyone. A very timid dog could be very easily frightened and intimidated by these techniques. And like I said earlier you know your dog and you have to feel comfortable with the technique you are using. The bottom line is that when you choose to have a dog you take on a responsibility to be held accountable for and control that dogs actions to keep not only them safe but also the people and other animals they may encounter. As long as you can accomplish that without harming your dog and still keep them happy and healthy than it does not matter what method you use.
